You're Not Going To Like This...
But I am encouraging you to read this Hitch article anyway on the Romney speech.
Click here.
I have personal and fundamental disagreements with his philosophy and tone, but he is a man of inarguably high intellect and one of the most astonishing writers of our time.
As painful as it may be, you need to expose yourself to his point of view. Let me know what you think.
I'd love to see some Left Wing blogs reprint Hitchens' views on the War on Terror, but he seems only useful when they agree with him. That's what makes BMA different.
Hithcens is indeed an interesting person to read and listen to. I fully expected him to come out swinging after Romney's speech.
Hitchens believes that religion is the cause for all of the world's problems and wars etc. He fails to recognize the far more good that religion has done for this world.
Romney made this speech because he felt he had to. I am certain that Romney and his people new that he would be praised and come under fire also.
Personally I think that it was an unnecessary speech at this point. If for some reason Romney would be held under strict scrutiny over his Mormonism and it became significant, then I could understand. I just think at this point it was not needed.
Hitchens as smart as he may be, with all the intelligence he has.. is drowning in his own godlessness. The man is rarely seen smiling and always looks angry. He is void of something and I think I know what/who it is...
Hitchens has all the knowledge of history and the written and spoken word. He makes very compelling arguments...But all this anti-religion BS to me is nill and non-sense..It just happens to sound substantial with his educated intellect and speech...
It's just bullshit wrapped in pretty ribbons....
I agree with Jamie that we should hear Hitchens' angle...It's always good to know what the other side is thinking.. Hitchens is at his best on this one...or worst..however you look at it.
Thx LTL
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Hitchens earned a tiny modicum of respect from me when he directed the words 'f*ck you' to Bill Maher's audience while discussing his support for Bush and the Iraq war.
That being said the ex-Trotskyite and subscriber to the religion of secular-humanism can be a pompous windbag.
After writing his book on how the religious and God are the problems of the world's ills, ex-communist David Horowitz responded with a letter pointing out that the worst atrocities in history were done by the secular crowd. I recommend you read it.
An Open Letter to Christopher Hitchens
http://www.frontpagemag.com/blog/Read.aspx?GUID=7652C0D2-4DE8-4341-AEF8-04CBF15DCA2F
Dear Christopher
Is it the case that religion poisons everything or is it we who poison everything, including religion? If religions are man-made, as you maintain, and are the way human beings deal with their fear of death and the unkown, and if the thirst for a meaningful life leads to an irrepressible need for redemption (even if it takes the form in your particular case of this human illusion a revival of the Enlightenment) the conclusion must be that religion will be with us always.
What Darwin and Nietzsche accomplished, then, is to have created a spiritual vacuum, replacing the old-time religion with either a scientific or nihilistic faith. These new secular reliigions -- most in evidence on the political left, have produced even more terrible results than those they have replaced. One illustration: At its height, the Spanish Inquisition killed 15 heretics a month; but during the height of the purges, the Stalinists got up to 20,000 per month. The death totals for Nazism, a pagan totalitarianism and Communism, an atheistic totalitarianism dwarf the crimes of any religion you condemn. (Your attempt to make them fit the case you are making is really unworthy).
Or switch to America in our lifetime. In the 1970s, the antinomian revolt that went under the name of gay liberation -- the idea that nature and nature's God had no immutable laws -- led directly to the preventable deaths of 300,000 young men in this country. Grant you that the Catholic Church has much to answer for because of its hostility to contraceptives in the midst of the epidemic in Africa. But surely it had no influence on the gay activists in this country who destroyed the public health system and rejected a century of scientific wisdom on how to fight epidemics in order to gain their nirvana of sexual freedom......
.....more
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and bye the way that flake hipieson or hitchon or whatever, has a hole in every wise acre argument he attempted. Shallow
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I dont have enough time to explain but I believe that Romney Speech was an attempt to bring back the Huckabee supporters to him.
Romney for Pres. Huckabee for Vice Rudy at Homeland Tancredo to dismantle IRS!
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Romney/Hunter? Guiliani/Hunter?
Can't go wrong with tough on the border, pro-life guy like Hunter. He can be a plus for those who think the others are waffley.
Tancredo can help on Homeland Security, if they don't dismantle it.
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......Pretty prose and intellect does guarantee a soul...............
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Oh stop all this supernaturalist hand ringing. Wipe the muck from your eyes and crawl out of your bronze-age swamp of nonsense. All religions are just different versions of the same untruth. Grow up and get over it.
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"Hitchens believes that religion is the cause for all of the world's problems and wars etc."
I don't know whether you are a liar or just ignorant. Hitchen's has never made such an absurd claim. Building and attacking a straw man undermines your position, it does not strengthen it. Try again.
"He fails to recognize the far more good that religion has done for this world."
Is that an empirical claim? If so, what is your evidence?
I agree with Hitchen's that religions are false, but I also think he overstates the harm they do. Dogma is the problem, be it religious, political, or otherwise.
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Robert , Is that your biggest paddle?? Perhaps an electric mixer would stir the shit more for you? Please enlighten us with your dogma or is it pragma??? I have to go wipe the muck out of my eyes and see if I can possibly crawl out of the bronze age into one as clever , sarcastic and ass wipery as yours is . At last the great definer of religion has landed here on our humble site.. thank you oh great spokes person of all that is holy or in your case unholy. Amen I have been saved.
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See above for my thoughts on dogma. Do you have a specific question?
Here's a nice clip of Hitch at his best:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=22fvEPsI2JA
I claim the right to ridicule.
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oh Robert, please tell why you put your faith in science? they accidentally kill hundreds of thousands in hospitals around the world, oops. they say global cooling, oops, global warming, no-no global climate change. they say man not with dinosaurs, oops yes they were. they say coffee bad, oops coffee good. they say the moon is millions of years old, oops the dust falls on the moon at a rate consistent with thousands of years not millions.
The possibility that we are here by cosmic happenstance is the article of a faith no sane and logic driven man could Hold.
the tenuose reality you call science has missing links (for those who don't get that, the evolutionary tree shows possible connections; fish-lizard, man-monkey, but for it to truly work requires those species to 'move' along the limbs of their pretty tree; billions and billions of fossilized examples---the missing link or rather links) and to get around that requires blind faith and just a little hand wringing.
So seriously Robert, grow up.
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Define faith.
You point out the great strength of science: as the evidence mounts, the models get closer and closer to the truth. Scientists are always willing to change belief based on evidence. There are no dogmas or prophets or holy books.
But the topic at hand is superstition, not science. Which gods do you worship? If your child is sick, do you go to a doctor or a holy man?
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I reiterate, do you have a bigger paddle? I reserve the right to think you a fool. There may not be a God but I would hate to espouse that tripe then go on to the other side and find there was one.
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What evidence do you have of "the other side"?
What evidence do you have that your superstition is right, and the thousands of others are all wrong?
You have presented the argument commonly called 'Pascal's Wager'. The argument is old, and weak, and easily refuted, as I have just done.
Here is another funnier but just as valid refutation:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dhsYdYW5Bg4
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What evidence do you have there is no other side. I have presented No arguement son. merely a supposition. I am not going to debate this with you.I have done it to many times and know that it is a waste of time, I would however advise you that the Daily Kos and sites that might be more to your liking are a little farther west of here. This is my final word. You came on this site to stir the shit no more no less. BMA is not about that. I'm done ........
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"What evidence do you have there is no other side."
You are requesting that I prove a negative? This is a logical fallacy that exposes you and your position as defeated.
I accept your surrender and declare victory. Next?
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#1 pascal asks where's your proof? to which i ask isnt 100 years enough time for you to bring yours? its amazing that you say to me 'there is no God' all of human history said 'there is a God or gods' I don't worry about proving a Creator because every detail of science points to an irreducible beginning thus making intelligence from non-intelligence a bizare leap. but than supplanting God to make yourself a god is the way of children for millenia
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btw when my children are sick I pray first then seek the help of the people God blessed us with. Nice try but please do better.
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Where did I say "there is no God"? I did not say that, and you claiming that I did is a lie.
If every detail of science points to a god, why do 93% of members of the National Academy of Sciences not believe in God? It would seem that if science gave evidence for God, then the leading experts in the field would know about it.
Again, you are making a false claim.
(Be careful. I am not using the authority of the National Academy of Sciences as evidence for the non-existence of God.)
Your argument is called "The God of the gaps." You don't understand how intelligence came to be, so you plug God in the gap. That's a problem. As knowledge grows and grows, the gaps in knowledge get smaller and smaller. And so does your god.
Also, if intelligence requires that it can only come from intelligence, then where did your god's intelligence come from? You made the rule buddy, now make it work.
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Well, in an emergency, you should probably skip the prayer part and just get them to a doctor. I know you mean well, but you should make decisions about the health of your children based on good evidence, not superstition. It's immoral to risk the health of a child.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/
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Scientists are always willing to change belief based on evidence
yet there dogma says to question them is superstition
All religions are just different versions of the same untruth. Grow up and get over it.
12/8/2007 9:17 PM Robert wrote:
Where did I say "there is no God"? I did not say that, and you claiming that I did is a lie.
speaking of contradictions....
why do 93% of members of the National Academy of Sciences not believe in God?
must i repeat what I think of scientific pompasity
oh Robert, please tell why you put your faith in science? they accidentally kill hundreds of thousands in hospitals around the world, oops. they say global cooling, oops, global warming, no-no global climate change. they say man not with dinosaurs, oops yes they were. they say coffee bad, oops coffee good. they say the moon is millions of years old, oops the dust falls on the moon at a rate consistent with thousands of years not millions.
but you should make decisions about the health of your children based on good evidence, not superstition. It's immoral to risk the health of a child.
I pray and treat at the same time. Are trying to not understand or did you just want to call me immoral?
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I believe I said the Evidence points to irreducible Intelligence. so just asking for proof of 'intelligence that made intelligence' won't wipe away the scientific evidence afore produced.
God is real. He Loves...His creation.
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Wow! Your reading comprehension is awful. Get a friend or something to read my posts and explain it to you.
You actually said "irreducible beginning" by which I think you were referencing the singularity, and then you segued into intelligence. Either way, your statements make no sense.
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why do 93% of members of the National Academy of Sciences not believe in God?
What have any of those 93% ever done?
How about these Christians and Jews, who were scientific greats (to name a few)...
Copernicus
Galileo
Kepler
Sir Isaac Newton
Sir Francis Bacon
Descartes
Boyle
Joule
Maxwell
Kelvin
Von Braun
And in the words of Albert Einstein -
"Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious forces that moves the constellations." AND "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Bottom line -
1. Empirical science and the scientific method did not develop in any other 'advanced' civilization on earth. That enterprise developed in only one place and time. In Christian Europe.
The rational theology of Catholicism and the Protestant Reformation - inspired by the truths/natural laws found in the Bible - led to the discoveries of modern science. That religion and the belief that humans could discover what natural order is, gave early scientists the faith and courage to keep looking for answers beyond their comprehension.
2. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Human rights are granted to us by God, not from a state, who can take them away. This idea of self-evident truths/natural laws originates from the Bible.
"The Bible contains the most profound philosophy, the most perfect morality, and the most refined policy, that ever was conceived upon earth. It is the most republican book in the world." - John Adams
"Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." - George Washington
3. Secularist/atheist states have unleashed more death and destruction upon innocents than the religious ever had. Look up Rudolph Rummel's research for the breakdown.
No morality, no worry that they will have to answer a higher power, the ends justifies the means. Nice scientific rational Mr. Atheist.
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As I feared, my reference to the National Academy was misinterpreted. (I even put a warning in my post, yet you did it anyway! Too funny.)
I'm not sure what the purpose of the history lesson is for.
Thank you for helping me make my point about about dogma in point #3.
Nothing you have said addresses the points Hitchen's made that I agree with:
Mormonism, like all religions, is nonsense.
I'm relieved you at least see some value in science, despite your superstitious beliefs.
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Robert, Ann I was going to stay out of this, but I feel Compelled.
History is true that Freud was also a Jew. And Sir with respect even when I was not a beleiver and had faith in "science", (which by the way does not exist without God)I was neve as vehenement and hateful and haughty as you have been sir. You seem to be a crazed Lib that has found his way into a common sense conversation. Also I am sick and tired of being treated as a throughback for belief in God. Sir you may also wish to do a bit of study there are many a wonderful intelligent self thinking famous people, who do believe in God. Personally I would rather place my faith in a person who got moral guidence from something rather than their selves.
Ann Bravo, do not let these bullies push you around! If You are ashamed of me in front of Man Then I will be ashamed of you in front of my father. I would rather be a fool for God/Christ than for man.
1*in*the*dust*
Lnsu
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Speaking from my own personal experience, I've never met a Mormon I didn't like. I honestly can't say that about atheists.
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My experience with Mormons has been the same JD. I have worked with about 10-12 over the last 5 years and they were all hard working and nice and all around great people.
But that does not change the fact that I find their belief system strange, as well as demonstrably false based on historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence.
Insu: I had a hard time understanding your post. Perhaps try using standard rules of grammar, punctuation, and spelling. I don't know why you find me crazed or hateful. I simply agreed with the article that was linked. We were asked to give our thoughts, which I did.
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Robert, you are a sad, shriveled, example of a militant atheist. If you do not believe in God that's your prerogative. How is it that you are so offended in something you do not believe to exist?
How can you be so drawn to spew your hateful garbage on something you do not beleive to exist??
How does that offend you??? Is your atheism true non-belief in a God, or are you just angry at God??
Your non-beleif does not make you anymore intelligent than one that does believe in a God>
Why the animosity?
Why do you feel the need to stomp on something that is dear to your fellow man??
Do you know Christopher Hitchens? You are friends with him? Is that why you were so drawn to say hurtful things???? Or is it just your personal make up that makes you this type of person???
How is it that such an intelligent person such as yourself is angered by something he does not beleive in???
That seems odd to me???
Your thoughts Robert, on this subject could have been useful and made for great discussion between fellow readers...
But you came out slinging mud and stirring up shit with an obvious anger and hatred....
Being an atheist or whatever you are is fine....But it may have something to do with you being an asshole.
Thx LTL
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It seems Ltl has summed it up well.
although miss direction is not proper argumentation on rob's part
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LTL,
I read this and feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. Where have I been hateful? When did I sling mud?
I value intellectual honesty, so when a person says something false, I point it out. Do you call that hate?
So are you going to retract your statement about Hitchen's? If not, please provide evidence for your accusation.
(Count up the swearing in this thread, and then decide who is angry and hateful.)
I have no connections with Hitch. I agree with him on some things and other things not so much.
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Where did I use misdirection?
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You might want to go back and read your posts Robert....Telling people to "grow up"
"Your reading comprehension is awful..get a freind....
"but you should make decisions about the health of your children based on good evidence, not superstition. It's immoral to risk the health of a child."
You lambast someone's prayer of a child and tell them to skip it??? Nice Robert...What a kind man you are.
"I don't know whether you are a liar or just ignorant."
Nice start to conversation Robert?? Especially from someone who has never or rarely conversed here...Great start up to your enlightening thoughts....
" Insu: I had a hard time understanding your post. Perhaps try using standard rules of grammar, punctuation, and spelling. I don't know why you find me crazed or hateful. I simply agreed with the article that was linked. We were asked to give our thoughts, which I did."
Without even knowing her you insulted her with your all knowing kind self didn't ya Robert??? Very Nice my man.
Seems you have an issue with anyone that doesn't believe as you??? Seems you have a problem with a belief system or lack there of??? Great tact Robert....
Thx LTL
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Telling someone to "grow up" is a common metaphor that means they should dispense with childish things. I did not intend it to be hurtful.
Lonny repeatedly accused me of saying things I did not. I concluded that he was unable to comprehend what I was writing.
Children suffer all the time when parents withhold or delay treatment because of superstition. I have a moral obligation to try and prevent that.
Your statement about Hitchen's was untrue. Either you knew that or you didn't. I was not insulting you.
I found Insu's post incomprehensible. Grammar, punctuation, and proper word usage are conventional tools we use for clear conversation. I don't like to be misunderstood, and I'm sure the same is true for Insu.
Is anybody up for really discussing the article this thread is supposed to be about?
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Hithcnes book "God Is Not Great" discusses the role of religion in war and events from virtually the beginning of history... to include all wars.
Hitchens said "religion poisons everything"
Here when asked about Hitler and Stalin..Hitchen implements religion into the cause...Even so far as to stretch the importance of the Catholic religion into Hitler's Mein Kampf...
Hitchens goes out of his way to inject religion as the cause of these two men's barbaric plights, rather than accept the fact they were not religious men at all.... A far stretch to debunk the thought that these two evil men were atheists... The question triggered by Hitchens beliefs that religion is the cause of war...
Wiener: The final killer argument of your critics is that Hitler and Stalin were not religious. The worst crimes of the 20th century did not have a religious basis. They came from political ideology.
Hitchens: That’s easy. Hitler never abandoned Christianity and recommends Catholicism quite highly in “Mein Kampf.” Fascism, as distinct from National Socialism, was in effect a Catholic movement.
Wiener: What about Stalin? He wasn’t religious.
Hitchens: Stalin—easier still. For hundreds of years, millions of Russians had been told the head of state should be a man close to God, the czar, who was head of the Russian Orthodox Church as well as absolute despot. If you’re Stalin, you shouldn’t be in the dictatorship business if you can’t exploit the pool of servility and docility that’s ready-made for you. The task of atheists is to raise people above that level of servility and credulity. No society has gone the way of gulags or concentration camps by following the path of Spinoza and Einstein and Jefferson and Thomas Paine.
You have a moral obligation to prevent children suffering Robert?? Spare us the heroics...
You found Insu's comments comprehensible enough to insult her though didn't you??? Or because of your moral obligations, maybe you were just trying to help right???
Sure Robert we're are always up for discussing the subjects here...we've been doing it a long time...but when high and mighty chest pounding and insults are made then we have a moral obligation to respond.
Thx LTL
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tardive dyskiensia Robert?????
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dyslexic DOG Insert smiley
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Great diagnosis Dr. McIntyre.
Thx LTL
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Robert,
You have a moral obligation to prevent the suffering of a child?? Spare us the heroics...
You found LNSU's comments comprehensible enough to insult her didn't you?? Or because of your moral obligations, maybe you were just trying to help???
In Hitchen's book "God Is Not Great" he shows the role of religion in war and events from vitually the beginning of history. He said that "religion poisons everything"
When asked about Hitler and Stalin and their atheism this was his response...
Wiener: The final killer argument of your critics is that Hitler and Stalin were not religious. The worst crimes of the 20th century did not have a religious basis. They came from political ideology.
Hitchens: That’s easy. Hitler never abandoned Christianity and recommends Catholicism quite highly in “Mein Kampf.” Fascism, as distinct from National Socialism, was in effect a Catholic movement.
Wiener: What about Stalin? He wasn’t religious.
Hitchens: Stalin—easier still. For hundreds of years, millions of Russians had been told the head of state should be a man close to God, the czar, who was head of the Russian Orthodox Church as well as absolute despot. If you’re Stalin, you shouldn’t be in the dictatorship business if you can’t exploit the pool of servility and docility that’s ready-made for you. The task of atheists is to raise people above that level of servility and credulity. No society has gone the way of gulags or concentration camps by following the path of Spinoza and Einstein and Jefferson and Thomas Paine.
Hitchens went out of his way to inject a religious role in godless men's horrific plights, even so far has to stretch the importance of the Catholic faith in Hitler's "Mein Kampf"... Hitchens ties religion into everything Robert..
"Fascism was a Catholic movement" ????
He ties Catholics into the fascist movement...nice Robert.
Thx LTL
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I agree with you on this point. Hitch is overreaching. My response would have been that dogma is the problem. Blind adherence to a belief system that is not to be questioned leads to horrific acts.
Still, he has never said, as far as I know, that "all the world's problems" are due to religion.
When Hitch says "Religion poisons everything" he is using the literary device of hyperbole. Perhaps this is a technique you are not familiar with, which is something I failed to consider in my initial post. So when I said you are either "a liar or ignorant", I used a false dichotomy. Sorry about that. I try to avoid fallacious arguments but sometimes make mistakes.
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Hmmmmmm. hyperbole?? Yes this must be beyond my comprehension... Oh look there it is again...
Thx LTL
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I myself have never, ever, not even one time in my whole life ever exaggerated.
Or nit picked.
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Robert
I'm not sure what the purpose of the history lesson is for.
Because you are ignorant of history. Many a great scientist had a deep faith in a higher power and respect for natural law.
Thank you for helping me make my point about about dogma in point #3.
And was it that atheism has it's own neo-fascist, eugenics, state is all powerful dogma?
Nothing you have said addresses the points Hitchen's made that I agree with:
Mormonism, like all religions, is nonsense.
And your belief in man is just as nonsensicle but with more dangerous repercussions. While I can give a rat's ass about Hitchens or your opinion on religion, what I had stated does address the bigger picture of which you are too arrogantly blind to see.
I'm relieved you at least see some value in science, despite your superstitious beliefs.
Again, the list of scientists above, is just a small list of many, who have the same superstitious belief. They, because of their 'faith' have done more for humanity than you or Hitchens can ever dream to do. You should learn how to pray so that you can thank God for living in a time where you take full advantage of what the religious have created for you. Western civilization. Freedom.
BTW, lay off the doctor/sick child baloney already. Most religious take their children to doctors for practical treatment but they, like many doctors, understand that to treat a person, you must treat the whole person. That is where faith comes in. And that is where they find those without faith (or call it positive thinking, if you wish) do not do as well in the healing process as those of faith.
You libs miss out on much. Perhaps that is why you are all so miserable. You rely on man and the state.
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Robert,
My comment was hyperbole..
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Annie,
Did I ever say "no scientists believe in God" or "Scientist so-and-so did not believe in God"? No, I did not. I just presented some recent data. That's all.
But since you brought it up, let's look at your list.
Galileo was put on trial and forced to recant the Copernican idea that the earth revolves around the sun. (I realize this fact about the earth is something many Americans don't know, but it's true.) So he recanted and spent the last years of his life under house arrest to avoid being burned alive by the church.
Now, knowing that, how would we really know what a scientist's beliefs were? What do you think would happen if a scientist said anything the church considered heresy? Hint: look up Giordano Bruno.
And finally, you, like many others, have grossly misrepresented Einstein. In a futile effort to stop the out of context abuse of his statements he said this:
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
Amen, brother.
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You are something else...Robert. You realize the fact that Americans don't realize the Earth revolves around the sun??? You are condescending beyond belief...WOW!
You read and are read like a Cyborg.... lack of depth in humanity and full of shit in science...
Thx LTL
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***All religions are just different versions of the same untruth. Grow up and get over it.***
Define Religion. I am assuming that you are referring to "denominations" rather than religions. True Religion believes in God Almighty, in the person of Jesus Christ. There is no other God. Not Allah, not Bhudda, not the god of the Hindus, the Shinto's, or any other. These were religions made by man, not, I repeat NOT inspired by God. They were however inspired by philosophies, and many of them are loosly based on Christianity, but deny Christ in the essence of their religion. The Founding Fathers of our Country determined that there would be "No State Religion", because, in England, the State religion was the "Church of England", AKA the Episcopal Church. If my memory of history serves me right. This is all that Seperation of Church and State is all about.
I do not discount the fact that there are many cults that claim to be Christian. Some of these are about as Christian as Satan himself...These are publicity seekers, calling attention to themselves, in order, in my opinion, to attract the curious as potential followers...
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By extrapolation from a 1999 Gallup Poll, 54 million of our fellow citizens believe the sun revolves around the earth.
You edited my statement. I said 'many' Americans. In my book, 54 million is a lot. Maybe you don't think so.
I am a cyborg.
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Oh boy, we've got a live one.
My definition:
A religion is a set of common beliefs and practices focusing on an unseen being or beings that is considered to be supernatural.
Do you know Stephen, that all those other religious people think their religion is "the one true religion", and that yours is false? They believe this just as passionately as you do. They just happened to be born somewhere else, that's all.
By probability alone, with all those other religions out there, your religion is most likely one of the false ones. (Or maybe . . . just maybe . . . they all are false.)
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When asked whether he believed in Spinoza's God (impersonal Deistic God), Einstein said -
"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what is is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."
And -
"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
And -
"To the sphere of religion belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
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You are at every post revealing yourself more and more as an idiot.
An overdose of stats and polls and the hard shove up an Einstein or Hitchen's ass...leave your "moral obligations" the same as I said about Hitchens...Bullshit wrapped up in pretty ribbons..
You are hunorous I must admit..
Thx LTL
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Yeah, Robert. They believe they are the one true religion...but I find it funny that you fight so hard for your one true....nothing...
A fight this hard over your condescending, ridiculous remarks reveal only one thing...You fight for YOU. You fight for egotistical scientist and self absorbed thinkers like your shriveled Hitchens..
It turns out it's all about YOU. It's all about Hitchens and Einstein and all your ME people...It's all about you and "THE NOW" isn't it...
That explains your poor attitude towards other people doesn't Robert??
Me Mine and I....right?
Thx LTL
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Robert, what do you really have against the religious when they have done and continue to do such good works for humanity? How have they harmed you?
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Annie,
You and I are thinking the same here...
Robert, are you truly just mad at God for something?
Why are you so bent on stomping on religion at the expense of people's feelings??
Give me Robert's view and not other people's views on why you take up this guidon???
Thx LTL
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the padre dropped him on his head in an empty baptismal
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I have a problem with religion because when people believe nonsense, bad things happen.
By "nonsense" I mean any belief system not based on good evidence. I don't care whether it's belief in Zeus, homeopathy, psychics, demons, fairies, the healing power of magnets, Allah, the superiority of the Aryan race, crystals, Marxist dogma or that childhood vaccines cause autism.
Yes, I'm sure people get great comfort from these false beliefs. But how many 'witches' did Christians burn because of an idiotic belief in witchcraft? How many Jews had to die because of an idiotic belief that the Aryan race is superior? How many Africans will die from AIDS because of an idiotic Catholic dogma against condoms? How many American children will die from measles because of an unfounded fear of vaccines.
No. This is not about me. It's about you. And your family. It's about humanity and it's future. It's about something real, not imaginary.
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test
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If that is what is really bugging you Robert, then it isn't about God at all. It is about the dark side of human nature. People do terrible things to each other every day. Rape, murder, robbery, torture, abuse for no good reason. Or aborting innocent babies or euthanizing the disabled out of convenience.
Just think what world history would have been had there been no religion espousing love, the Golden Rule, and morals. Religion has been a fabulous guidepost that tries to reign in the dark side in all of us.
As to two of your questions....AIDS is entirely preventable. How about teaching people some self restraint, drug use is bad, having sex with prostitutes is dumb, and anal sex probably isn't a good idea (since this is the number one transmitter). Perhaps a little moral boundary can do more to help the situation than a condom that can break and the feel good attitude.
Natural law my friend, you break it, you pay the consequences. Religion warns us of that.
Most people, religious or otherwise, vaccinate their children against measles. So, I don't see why this upsets you.
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Robert,
Thanks again for your "moral obligation" to my family and humanity Robert.
The people in Africa dying of AIDS are not because of the Catholic religion. They are the result of a male dominated culture, a patriarchal society. It's tribal not Bible Robert.
You are cornering yourself into the same small paragraph of Mein Kampf in regards to Catholics. You know the same paragraph your lord Hitchens spoke of???
Lay off my God and my religion Robert.
It's not needed...
Thx LTL
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Which god is that? You people make up so many, how would I know which one is your favorite?
Put an 'X' by yours.
Agdistis or Angdistis
Ah Puch
Ahura Mazda
Alberich
Amaterasu
An
Anat
Andvari
Anshar
Anu
Aphrodite
Apollo
Apsu
Ares
Artemis
Asclepius
Athena
Athirat
Athtart
Atlas
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- B -
Baal
Ba Xian
Bacchus
Balder
Bast
Bellona
Bergelmir
Bes
Bixia Yuanjin
Bragi
Brahma
Brigit
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- C -
Camaxtli
Ceres
Ceridwen
Cernunnos
Chac
Chalchiuhtlicue
Charun
Cheng-huang
Cybele
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- D -
Dagon
Damkina (Dumkina)
Davlin
Dawn
Demeter
Diana
Di Cang
Dionysus
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- E -
Ea
El
Enki
Enlil
Eos
Epona
Ereskigal
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- F -
Farbauti
Fenrir
Forseti
Freya
Freyr
Frigg
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- G -
Gaia
Ganesha
Ganga
Garuda
Gauri
Geb
Geong Si
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- H -
Hades
Hanuman
Helios
Heng-o (Chang-o)
Hephaestus
Hera
Hermes
Hestia
Hod
Hoderi
Hoori
Horus
Hotei
Huitzilopochtli
Hsi-Wang-Mu
Hygeia
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- I -
Inanna
Inti
Ishtar
Isis
Ixtab
Izanaki
Izanami
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- J -
Jesus
Juno
Jupiter
Juturna
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- K -
Kagutsuchi
Kartikeya
Khepri
Ki
Kingu
Kinich Ahau
Kishar
Krishna
Kukulcan
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- L -
Lakshmi
Liza
Loki
Lugh
Luna
Top of Page
- M -
Magna Mater
Maia
Marduk
Mars
Medb
Mercury
Mimir
Minerva
Mithras
Morrigan
Mot
Mummu
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- N -
Nammu
Nanna
Nanna (Norse)
Nanse
Neith
Nemesis
Nephthys
Neptune
Nergal
Ninazu
Ninhurzag
Nintu
Ninurta
Njord
Nut
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- O -
Odin
Ohkuninushi
Ohyamatsumi
Orgelmir
Osiris
Ostara
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- P -
Pan
Parvati
Phaethon
Phoebe
Phoebus Apollo
Pilumnus
Poseidon
Pilumnus
Poseidon
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- Q -
Quetzalcoatl
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- R -
Rama
Re
Rhea
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- S -
Sabazius
Sarasvati
Selene
Shiva
Seshat
Seti (Set)
Shamash
Shapsu
Shen Yi
Shiva
Shu
Si-Wang-Mu
Sin
Sirona
Sol
Surya
Susanoh
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- T -
Tawaret
Tefnut
Tezcatlipoca
Thanatos
Thor
Tiamat
Tlaloc
Tonatiuh
Toyo-Uke-Bime
Tyche
Tyr
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- U -
Utu
Uzume
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- V -
Venus
Vesta
Vishnu
Volturnus
Vulcan
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- X -
Xipe
Xi Wang-mu
Xochipilli
Xochiquetzal
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- Y -
Yam
Yarikh
Ymir
Yu-huang
Yum Kimil
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- Z -
Zeus
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Oh That is brilliant Robert...
" You people"???
Things are coming so much clearer as posts go by....
thx LTL
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No props for my joke? OK, I guess this has run it's course.
I'll stay away for awhile, or just find another right-wing forum to drop a stink bomb in.
Peace
Namaste
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Robert, go back up and read my last post. Your anger is misdirected.
God is God. There is only one.
You are getting silly.
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Robert,
You didn't drop anything here that this forum has not seen...
We don't give a rat's ass what you believe...
Just don't fantasize about being of above our beliefs... Pretty simple.
thx LTL
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That's what I thought. Robert is a shit disturber.
Hey Robert, make sure you wash your hands after playing with yourself.
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hullo
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The religion that I have may be false, but the God of my religion is NOT. Whether or not you believe in Jesus, makes me no difference. God has allowed you to make your own decision to be a fool. You see, it is a foolish person who does not believe in some sort of diety. If you choose NOT to believe in God, that's your choice. I choose to believe in Jesus Christ.
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hey ltl annie wayne n stephen
Back from work and raisin little Christians, and I must say reading this thread has been fun. I think Robert isn't angry at all, I think he was entertaining himself. He made alot of surface arguments he attacked peoples intelligence and was careful to jab with every post. He was never listening to any of us. But I feel like this was still worth it because he showed us the latest lies the serpent is shedding in our colleges. This thread is definitely a keeper for me.
And thanks Annie and Ltl for all the Great commentary I cut and pasted enough for a whole sermon, you all are awesome!
Hey Robert, Jesus said the Truth is hidden from the wise and revealed to the simple. A little Humility would serve you better if you really want to benefit mankind. To answer the question of where is your proof of God, the Bible makes it clear that You have to seek to find God. Now what would happen to free will if God made it obvious?
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Great points Lonny,
I know and work with some atheists and most have just been raised without the promise but are "cool"... But some will be militant and angry towards something they apparently don't believe in...
Which always puzzles me. When that happens, it's usually something deeper.
I pray for them I truly do...Christians are not perfect but we follow the only one to grace the Earth who was...
And His words are something that any person that has heart and compassion can appreciate.
Thx LTL
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